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February 02, 2010
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business Plans
By: Ina Steiner
Tue Feb 2 2010 17:13:55
To the Editor: eBay has become the most inconsistent, unpredictable and unstable platform in eCommerce.... and it is by their own design.
Under neophyte CEO John Donahoe, eBay is in the third year of a three year tear whereby destructive innovation rules at the expense of providing a consistent and reliable platform for sellers.
Constant changes to policy and systems make it impossible for a seller to develop and implement a successful business plan that is able to produce positive results for any meaningful length of time. This is a sin exclusive to eBay .No other platforms come close to the number of changes both public and private that eBay constantly subjects buyers and sellers to.
Sellers attempting to make a living on eBay need to know that eBay admits they tinker with search algorithms without announcement of any kind as to the nature or duration of said tinkering.
The secretive (unannounced/undisclosed) nature of search algorithm changes/testing was revealed in a podcast posted on auctionbytes.com with eBay Senior Director of Selling Experience Todd Lutwak. That podcast can be heard here:
In the podcast, Mr Lutwak stated that eBay frequently updates/changes/revises search algorithms on eBay, as well as conducts various system and search "tests". The nature and duration of these "tests" are not announced to buyers or sellers, before or after, despite the fact that such "tests" might positively or negatively impact visibility of sellers listings. As a result, sellers have no reliable way to measure and evaluate their success or failure in the marketplace.
So, with constant system changes, policy changes, search changes, search manipulations, and secret tests, sellers can not have expectations of any reliability or consistency with regard to listing visibility and thus selling on the eBay platform.
Sellers frequently report inconsistencies with regard to sales performance. Some sellers have previously attributed the inconsistencies to "rolling blackouts" which eBay has vehemently denied.
Given Mr Lutwak's statements to auctionbytes, it now seems probable that sales inconsistencies are not the result of "rolling blackouts" per se, but, instead are the result of eBay's secretive tweaking and testing of search algorithms. The reality is this essentially amounts to the same thing, eBay chooses to simply play the semantics game.
Constantly fluctuating search algorithms negatively impact sellers, not just in reduced sales due to inconsistent and unpredictable buyer experience, but also makes it impossible for sellers to create successful business plans and listing strategies that produce successful or consistent results for any period of time.
This begs the question how sellers are supposed to determine a consistent strategy for selling on the eBay platform when these secretive changes effecting search are being randomly implemented?
eBay might genuinely be attempting "improvements', but when buyer experience is inconsistent, sellers success is inconsistent as well. eBay is failing their fee paying sellers by managing a platform that fails to offer consistent search results due to deliberate, planned, and secretive testing.
Sellers pay listing fees for exposure of their items in search. It would seem that when the search algorithm is being revised, tweaked, experimented with or tested, that sellers' may not be receiving consistent exposure of their paid listings in search results presented to buyers. This being the case, sellers should be entitled not just to advance notification of changes or tests, but some consideration with regard to refunding fees when visibility is negatively impacted.
It is apparent that eBay does not officially acknowledge these tweaks, tests, or experiments, in order to dissuade sellers from attributing reduced sales performance or increased success to the time period these experiments are being conducted. Instead, sellers are left uninformed, and have no way of knowing that testing is the likely cause of their erratic selling success.
Without information, sellers are unable to accurately measure their success or failure unless or until an announcement is made after the fact as has happened in this rare instance. eBay essentially blinds sellers and prevents them from accurately determining why they have inconsistent or irregular success. (Perhaps when sellers open a selling account or store, eBay should present them with a complimentary tin cup, pencils, a red tipped cane, and dark glasses.)
In this instance, sellers are being told long after testing was completed that testing had taken place, and it is suggested they look back at previous performance to see if they were helped or hurt. Had it not been for the intentional or unintentional comment from Mr Lutwak, sellers would have no reasonable explanation for their success or failure during the time the test was conducted.
The point is, eBay is charging sellers fees, engaging in secretive tests, and blinding sellers with regard to changes in the level of consistency of their sales for better or worse until after the fact, and usually, not at all. This does nothing to improve seller satisfaction or confidence in their so called trading partner.
eBay's lack of transparency and candor with their selling community is no secret, however, when a basic feature such as search is going to be revised, tweaked, experimented with or tested, sellers should be entitled to timely notice in order to be able to make more informed decisions with regard to how said issues may be impacting their success.
Sellers should not hear about tests or tweaks months after the fact, and have to go back months to find out they were positively or negatively impacted. eBay has an obligation to be honest and transparent with their sellers, and they consistently fail in this regard.
Given the disclosure of highly secretive tinkering with search algorithms it is hard to imagine sellers being satisfied that the listings they are paying to place are receiving consistent exposure.
eBay holds sellers to specific standards of performance and reliability, yet as a company they ignore the fact that they are consistently failing to even come close to affording their fee paying sellers the same standards.
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: kevin
Tue Feb 2 17:56:32 2010
well said.....our october sales were down and ASP was off significantly. I could not figure out why at the time and eventually just wrote it off as an anomaly. Now I know why....they were flooding search with store listings. LISTINGS THAT HAD AN INSERTION FEE OF .03 INSTEAD OF THE .15 WE PAID!!! They need to understand that sellers really do want ebay to succeed, but when we say to quit with the constant changes, they need to listen!
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: fruity
Tue Feb 2 19:07:44 2010
I was reading an article the other week about how Google instead of rolling out changes during the holday quarter, how they do changes and rollouts after the season so as to not disrupt the business plans of their advertisers. The article was I felt a good way to look at how Google who drives traffic to their customers who pay, very differently in how ebay does it to theirs. We are paying for advertising, and we have marketing budgets and strategies in place.
To voice my displeasure with the antics of this company, I would like to take inspiration from 1989's Christmas Vacation. Character being Clark Griswold as portrayed by Chevy Chase. And to ensure that this is not directed towards any one in particular I will use the entire ebay inc management structure as a whole:
I'd like Ebay Management, the jerks, right here tonight. I want them brought from their happy slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want them brought right here, in leg irons, and I want to look them straight in the eye and I want to tell them what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, postering, patronizing, rhetoric-throwing, blood-sucking, money-stealing, fat-fingered, crooked-lipped, life-sucking, poop-throwing, barrel of toxic waste they are! Hallelujah!
and then we're all gonna have just the hap, hap, happiest 2010 ever!
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: David
Tue Feb 2 19:41:34 2010
I listed large amounts of items several years ago. I would often run search tests for my specific item. 1 or 2 times out of ten, the item would show in the search results. Having caught on to their antics long ago, I knew something was going on. Looking back it pisses me off even more now then it did then. eBay was born in a deceptive manner, they run their business daily, in a deceptive manner. I left them 6 years ago and the only thing I miss today is the access to completed auction information, which I used for market discovery.
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Guess man
Tue Feb 2 23:34:44 2010
David are you still selling online or are you out of the business totally? Just trying to understand how certain few out there totally leave eBay and sell there products elsewhere because right now bonanzle,ioffer,wigix,ebid are still nowhere near traffic of attracting buyers. To me all these other alternatives are just pulling our chains because they do absolutely NO advertising! I don't blame eBay for laughing in their chairs when they see these other Alternatives out there.
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Peggy
Wed Feb 3 00:02:43 2010
What is so unfortunate about this entire situation, is that each time eBay manipulates us, they claim that we agreed to such tactics when we agreed to the "User Agreement." eBay defines their User Agreement terminology anyway they please. We as Sellers are shocked to find out that we gave up our rights to a trial in court in our own location and any complaint must be done in San Jose which is convenient to eBay. Paypal's User Agreement is over 20 pages long and is just as complicated; thus, hardly anyone reads the agreements until eBay or Paypal does something that shocks us. I am fuming that our government does not regulate eBay; therfore, eBay does as eBay pleases. Most recently, I was promised credit from an eBay rep (I have him on recording. The credit was never given to me in spite of him saying that this credit was going through as we spoke - that was over a month ago. The Ohio Attorney General who I filed a complaint with did nothing, but told me to obtain legal counsel. eBay knows we can't afford legal counsel, so they have the power to control the entire world while our government sits back and watches. My story is long and complicated as I was one of the unfortunate members who had their listings shut down (all $25,000.00 worth) right before Christmas and all of my purchases were canceled by eBay, so my sellers got to keep the items I purchased and got to keep my money. The reason eBay shut me down, was because they wanted to know my wholesaler. I've been a member for over 10 years and was shocked when this happened. Paypal held my money back and then eBay tried to deduct my fees, so everything bounced. What a scam eBay and Paypal is. Our government needs to step in and put a stop to the Paypal payment just like Australia did, but the US Government doesn't seem to care.
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: sparky
Wed Feb 3 00:49:10 2010
I developed a strategy in selling that caused a steady increase in business over 6 months straight. October my business fell just below half during one of the 'secret' testing sessions. I determined the searches were experimenting just by watching who was buying - new, old, repeat ... much more. I was angry enough to almost shut down my business. Yes, there is so little consistency that a working business strategy is near impossible on this venue. Fees for what?
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: EventHorizon1984
Wed Feb 3 01:41:59 2010
Looks like the idea is for a few people to repeat the same mantra over and over again; that nothing happens outside eBay.
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-amazon-is-st ill-eating-ebays-lunch-2010-1 ''The bad news: we think eBay continues to lose market share. On average, the PowerSellers in our survey sold ~56% of their total online volume on eBay in 2009, down from ~65% in 2008. More than half of respondents ranked Amazon as an “Excellent” channel to drive sales, whereas only 23% felt this way about eBay. We think such market share losses are driven by a shift within eCommerce to a multi-channel environment. Thus, even if eBay isn’t losing volume, volume is growing faster at other third-party sites, driving market share declines.'' Henry Bloget
Doesn't seem to be working as well as it did a few years ago.
Marketplace Options for 2010 http://www.myblogutopia.com/2010/01/marketplace-options-for-20 10.html
Especially when it's easier for warehouse-scale sellers to conduct their own tests, and see quick results.
An Analysis Of The New EBay Pricing Change By A Seller In-The-Trenches http://thebrewsnews.com/2010/02/02/an-analysis-of-t he-new-ebay-pricing-change-by-a-seller-in-the-trenches/
eBay sellers should consider running their own multi-venue tests, and make their own decisions.
Or believe without question the results outside will be as the eBay mantra states they will be. And put up with unscheduled and unannounced tests in a production environment.
''We see our customers as invited guests to a party, and we are the hosts. It's our job every day to make every important aspect of the customer experience a little bit better.'' Jeff Bezos
''We may have some sellers that make some noise'' John Donahoe
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Alexander
Wed Feb 3 02:31:23 2010
Considering how much difficulty sellers have endured over this past few years, now more then ever, the time has come for sellers to step forward and start a sellers union or support group in search of strong legal representation.
As independent sellers, we can no longer afford to sit here without legal representation. To do so will bring us nothing more then what we have received.
For us sellers to expect different results from continuing to complain without action is nothing short of insanity itself.
I am not a lawyer but it is obvious the longer we sit here taking shots from e-bays ''guns of change'' the worse things will continue to get for sellers.
If we continue to do nothing, at some point we will be forced to give up so much of our profit that sellers will be nothing short of slaves to the ebay machine. How do you feel about ebay and paypal taking a higher percentage of profit then the actual seller? If they are not already doing so to your margins, your turn is coming soon.
No need to delay or wait for ebays ''Buyer Protection'' to kick in, we need to consider action some time soon.
Do you feel comfortable with e-bay having access to your finances to refund disgruntled buyers? For those who haven't noticed, we are dealing with a new generation of ''I want it now'' buyers. It doesn't help that e-bay has made them feel so at home. After all, recent changes to eBay not only help their bottom line but also are geared to satisfy the ''me'' generations need for immediate gratification more on ebay then anywhere else on the web.
With the plethora of lawyers in California, it shouldn't be too hard for us to find some that would be willing to take on the ebay machine on our behalf. Any takers?
Personally, I'm tired of all the changes, I'm ready to do something drastic. Folks, this ship is sinking... it's time for ebay sellers to unit for one and all. I'm afraid it's now or never my fellow sellers, we need to get the ball rolling or accept what's coming as this boat is taking on more water each day.
The time is right... sellers unit for our futures! Alexander
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: TLS
Wed Feb 3 07:24:35 2010
Re: The ''Buyer Protection''.
It's already kicked in according to some sellers on ebays discussion boards. Ebay is going into sellers paypal accounts and refunding buyers.
Scroll down on the following discussion board thread link, to ebay seller user id pacherb to read what recently happened to her, and then read the comment directly below hers, which is a great point. This IS the same as someone breaking into your bank account and stealing!
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Divided We Fall
Wed Feb 3 08:27:46 2010
@Alexander
Excellent Post - I couldn't agree more. Sellers need representation; a genuine advocate, someone without a conflict of interest. Not another Griff. I vote for Ming!
That said, I’ve pretty much given up hope that eBay will ever listen to anyone unless forced to do so by stockholders or Government. And I don’t see that happening. Despite input from PESA (The Professional eBay Seller’s Association) various focus groups, seller surveys and more…eBay has chosen to ignore its members and problems. Management doesn’t care and nothing will change unless it somehow benefits eBay. That’s a sad statement when you consider the type of business that eBay is – a business that is all about goodwill and people. Without people (sellers), eBay is just a pixel.
I will never forget a call I had with the Power Seller help line last year. I was having difficulty with Selling Manager Pro and couldn’t reach my TSAM. My call was routed to a centre in Vancouver, which just happened to be closed in a few days. One thing led to another and during the call I asked why this bug had not been fixed – I had reported it before and was assured they were working on it. The CSR said, “Don’t hold your breath.” I remember being shocked at his candour and asked what he meant? He replied, “EBay doesn’t care.”
I’ve never forgotten that comment. Of course this employee was being laid off so some might say he had an axe to grind. But I believe he was being absolutely truthful and that his comment says it all - EBay doesn’t care.
EBay closed the call centre in Vancouver shortly after the Provincial Government stopped subsidizing staff salaries. A few months later, the call centre in Germany was also closed, and again, shortly after local funding ran out. Perhaps this is just how big business operates, but to me, there is something fundamentally wrong with a company as profitable as eBay, getting funding for anything! Not to mention pulling the plug when said funding ends! Both eBay call centres received great press when they opened - eBay was portrayed as a business that invests in communities. Obviously that doesn’t include the virtual community!
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: LHH
Wed Feb 3 08:32:23 2010
In the 40+ years I was developing and maintaining computer systems, we always tested on a test system that the users never saw. We never tested on the production systems. Consequently, we implemented new or changed code only after off-line testing. Also when we implented something, we could immediately restore the system to previous version if something went awry. Why can't eBay adhere to these principals?
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Jermaine
Wed Feb 3 12:55:39 2010
Could you imagine what the Teamsters could do with ebay?
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Tony P.
Wed Feb 3 15:54:31 2010
It appears that the majority of ebay users don't fully grasp the 'ebay experience' - IT is a constantly changing environment. CONSTANTLY. As in, this very minute *something* is changing on the site. It may stay changed, or it may revert back, or it may change to something else.
Mulitply that "something" by a factor of 10, or 100, or 1000, and you'll be close to the truth. If you are (were) a fan of the Search Discussion Board, you'd know about Search 2.0/3.0 and how it was a constantly-evolving thing; aspects of it changed every few days, for an 18 month period. Users were subjected to different Views, every-so-often. That's just one example.
Ebay has thousands of employees whose job it is to CHANGE things - they call it Improvements and Enhancments. They show up at work 5 days a week, so when they aren't thinking and talking about changes, they are actually implimenting the changes. Ebay thinks it is their job to change things.
They're actually no different than most modern companies in that regard. Think about Microsoft and how they change the current OS to Windows 7, even though everyone is fairly happy with WinXP. If they didn't do that, the rest of the world would claim that MS was "standing still" and "no longer a good stock option". Think of all of the hardware manufacturers that make computer parts; they constantly improve their offerings, even if no one wants/needs an upgrade.
Now imagine that each day that you wake up, your computer's hardware and software has been upgraded. Some things may be an improvement, but the things with bugs and glitches cancels out any enjoyment you might get from them. Imagine that each night that you go to sleep, the hardware and software elves (more like trolls) set you up for the next day's round of disappointments and frustrations. Imagine too, that you just can't stop them.
That's the Ebay Experience.
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: J.G.
Thu Feb 4 01:08:41 2010
@ Alexander I think you need to elaborate on your idea for seller group legal representation. How would you set it up, how would you get money, etc., etc.
In this edition of Auctionbytes, eBay borders on evil with the ex-employee blogs and the secret testing and eBay reaching into your Paypal pocket without your permission, like it's their piggy bank. Things seem very wrong. I think their system and tactics need to be looked into. The press just parrots what the management puts out. The stock analysts can't see past the Paypal success. The stockholders just care about points up or down. Who is left to expose what's under the rock?
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: John Short
Thu Feb 4 02:05:03 2010
A good sign that things are very bleak at eBay... the below Sellers are posting Contact Information (phone numbers, web sites, email addresses) in their feedback left for others, on their item listing/description page and/or within their "eBay My World" page. Ebay refers to these practices as fee circumvention. In other words, if I was interested in purchasing an item from one of the sellers below, I could just contact the seller and we could work out a deal and cut eBay out completely... so the question is... why does eBay allow the below sellers to do so? Also, note longevity, locations of sellers and what they are selling!
csrtechnologie ( 61482 ) [eBay Store] - 7 years 0 months OH,United States thewarstoreonline ( 1033 ) [eBay Store] - 10 years 5 months NY,United States buyatool ( 33452 ) [eBay Store] - 7 years 7 months United Kingdom skyteam2009 ( 5189 ) - 7 months China delightful-uk ( 26517 ) [eBay Store] - 3 years 2 months United Kingdom friend_of_ours ( 762 ) [eBay Store] - 3 years 9 months IL,United States zkarlo ( 80107 ) [eBay Store] - 12 years 1 month MN,United States cellularstream ( 33879) - 1 year 9 months IL,United States templates-queen ( 707) - 1 year 6 months NJ,United States danna ( 9592) - 12 years 1 month FL,United States seller_traffic ( 105) 1 year 7 months MS,United States m-na ( 316) - 7 years 4 months Germany phantom1976 ( 672) - 10 years 5 months NJ,United States mickeyskins ( 3822) 7 years 2 months NE,United States read*enjoy ( 3945) 4 years 9 months Netherlands
I brought read*enjoy (a Netherlands eBay Trading Assistant) fee circumvention practices to eBay's attention prior to this report and below is how read*enjoy left "feedback left for others" and note how eBay has NOW changed the feedbacks to "This comment has been removed by eBay". But they missed this one! LOL!:
Positive feedback rating readandenjoy.com would love to see you back again! Buyer: 0512phantasm ( 508 [Feedback score is 500 to 999] ) Oct-30-09 04:08-- (#200395412531)
And the eBay feedback changes go back to Jul-14-09 and then you can see they resort back to the original feedbacks with contact information!
This fee circumvention can only be bad news for eBay. And I have a feeling we are going to be seeing more and more of it!
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: Fruity
Thu Feb 4 13:23:53 2010
Wow John, you want an award or something?
Maybe this is what the mega-sellers meant? Maybe they didn't mean I was the unprofessional type
eBay's Secret Testing Harmful to Sellers' Business
by: bubbles
Mon Feb 15 23:25:02 2010
We feel the rolling Blackouts are strictly bottom line orientated - i.e. sellers keep paying the relist fees. This has been going on for years.
